[0:06] As a leader, is it possible to be too nice? That is the question we are going

[0:11] to tackle today on Do Something Different, a leadership podcast. I am Rusty Gaillard and I'm excited to have you with me. I want to start by admitting that I am a people-first leader. I believe as a leader you have to invest in your people because it is through your people that you generate success. Not only in terms of the results that you achieve and your ability to drive the business forward, but also in the greater scheme of life, it is your experience and your relationship of working with people that is rewarding. When my dad retired after many years, 35 years working at the same company, he received a number of letters from people saying how much they appreciated working with him. It wasn't a particular project they worked on. It wasn't any of that. It was the experience of working together. And that informed me about being a people first leader. You have to develop your people. You have to lean into them. You want to encourage and grow your team because when your team is successful, you are successful.

[1:13] I, of course, worked at Apple for 14 years and Steve Jobs has always been a model for leadership for me, but not in this one area because he was not necessarily the nicest people first kind of person. He was very focused on results. And does that work? Of course it works in some cases, but it takes an extraordinary person and personality in order to achieve that. Steve Jobs was clearly extraordinary. Most of us have to rely on good people, leadership, and management skills in order to be successful. Okay.

[1:47] It's hard to go around and look at social media or most media these days without seeing something about Justin Baldoni and Blake Lively and the drama they've had going on around their movie and the production of their movie.

[2:00] One of the things I think is worth exploring and we're going to be talking about today is was Justin Baldoni too nice as a leader? If you just look at the very high level picture of what happened, he was the star of the movie, but more than that, he was the director and a producer of this movie. And yet, over time, Blake Lively took more and more control over that movie. Until the point today where, of course, there's lawsuits and counter lawsuits and it's a big mess. But the final movie that was released was edited by Blake Lively. It was not even Justin Baldoni's edit, even though he was the director and the producer of the movie. So what happened? When you look at a lot of the comments about Justin Baldoni. The only thing you see is that he was so nice. And I've even seen the words toxic positivity associated with him. So it begs the question, can you be too nice as a leader? And I would argue yes, but we're going to break down four specific points to look at that. The first point is that being nice is not the same as being strong.

[3:07] Oftentimes, people think about being nice as just saying yes to other people, about giving them what they want, about avoiding conflict. But that is not nice. One of my favorite expressions comes from Brene Brown, and it is this. Clear is kind. And what clear is kind means is that you have to step forward and tell people what you really think. You have to express yourself. self. You've got to own your opinion and you have to express it. The challenge is that many people are afraid of losing the other person in the process. Well, if I'm really honest with them, are they going to be mad at me? Are they going to not respect me? Are they not going to like me?

[3:51] But in fact, it is this question of being liked versus being respect where a lot of people get hung up. I actually recorded a whole podcast episode on five questions you can ask yourself to assess whether you prefer being liked or being respected. And go back and listen to that podcast because a lot of people would be surprised to find there are parts of them that are, even though intellectually you would say, well, clearly I would rather be respected than liked, a lot of people act as if they would rather be liked than respected. And I think that's what was going on with Justin Baldoni because being nice is not the same thing as being strong. And he was leaning too far on being nice, but really what that means is being weak. He was avoiding conflict, he was saying yes, and he let Blake Lively take over things that were really not her responsibility and not appropriate for her to be taking over given the roles and responsibilities on the film. Because I would argue that Justin Baldoni was likely afraid of being strong.

[4:54] So point number one, being nice is not the same as being strong. Point number two, pleasing others leads to failure as a leader.

[5:05] I think this is another classic example you see in this dynamic between Justin Baldomi and Blake Lively, that he was being nice to her. He was pleasing her. He was giving her everything that she wanted. He was treating her very gently and trying to give her what she wanted and support her. And what happens? It results in this kind of uncertainty and chaos and dysfunction in the whole production of the movie. And you can see exactly what happened because of the massive conflict that has evolved over the ensuing months.

[5:38] I have a client that I'm working with right now who's struggling with the same thing, pleasing others and how that is actually undermining his leadership. And in this case, the pleasing others is not so much his peers and the people below him, but it's wanting to please his boss and the people above him in the organization. And what that means is doing a lot of second guessing about what do those people want and what's important to them and what kind of work product or what kind of decision can I bring to the table or recommendation can I bring to the table that those people will like. The problem is when you're trying to please other people, you're going to fail as a leader and it is playing out in this person's situation because he's trying to anticipate what the other people want. But of course, he doesn't get it right all the time. And what happens is they see him as wishy-washy. and they see him as uncertain because he's not bringing forward his opinion and his recommendation, what he truly believes. Instead, he is bringing forward what he thinks they want to hear and it's undermining their trust and belief in him.

[6:42] Pleasing other people leads to failure as a leader. And if you are failing to address key issues because you're trying to please other people, you are going to fail as a leader. So you've got to identify with

[6:55] those key issues and you have to make your recommendation for them and bring that forward. That leads us to our third point, which is that if you are a people first leader, if you're a nice person, if you've got high EQ, if you have high emotional intelligence, it requires tough conversations. Now, some people think that's a conflict, that it doesn't make any sense. Well, what do you mean? If I'm a nice person, I have to have tough conversations? Absolutely. Absolutely.

[7:22] What is more respectful? If you see someone, one of your good friends, who's at a party, you're there together at the party, and you see them and they've got something stuck in their teeth, this big green thing stuck in their teeth, is it nicer to say something or not to say something? I think all of us would agree it's nicer to say something, and yet it's somehow a little bit uncomfortable. That's just a very simple example of the kind of tough conversation that I'm alluding to. You have to be willing to lean into those uncomfortable conversations and address them directly. Because if you don't do those things, you are not being nice. You are not being respectful. So in the case of Justin Baldoni, of course, we know that one of the things that happened on the set was Blake Lively filed a complaint about the way she was being treated. So how does Justin Baldoni respond? Well, it requires the tough conversation. If he had handled it well, it would have required him sitting down, having that tough conversation, understanding, listening, really figuring out what the problem is. And I think that's one of the keys about being a good leader. It requires way more listening. And this is a mindset change for a lot of leaders. Because if someone comes to you as a leader with a problem, what is your first temptation? It's to give them an answer. It's to solve the problem for them. Because that's what your job is as a leader, right? You are expected to solve problems.

[8:52] I want to shift things around. What if instead your primary purpose as a leader is to help other people solve their problems? To listen. To ask good questions. To ask good questions. What if Justin Baldoni, instead of trying to brush this over or solve the problem very quickly, had taken the time to understand what the real concern is and then take it seriously and act on it? Now, I hold open the possibility that Justin Baldoni has some kind of blind spot around the way he was acting on set that was making Blake Lively uncomfortable. That is totally possible. Maybe that was going on. Maybe it wasn't. I don't know. And honestly, it doesn't matter. What matters here is that as a leader, you have to be willing to listen, to ask questions and get information. And if you might have a blind spot, to find a way to identify that. Now, a blind spot by definition is something you can't see. So the way you identify that is you bring in support. You bring in another person, you bring in another perspective, somebody who can help assess the situation and decide, is this something that truly needs attention and needs you to change? That is being responsible. that is being a people-first leader.

[10:01] The fourth point that I want to make about this is that if you are relying just on personality in order to enforce accountability, that is a mistake. You need to have systems and process for accountability. When you don't have that, things feel chaotic, they feel unfair, they feel whimsical. You're never sure exactly what's going to happen because it's entirely personality dependent accountability requires clear expectations and it requires feedback and those are two things that it sounds like were not really present on the set during this filming of this movie with blake lively and justin baldoni, if there had been clear expectations i don't think it would have gotten to the point where blake lively took over production and editing of the film i don't think it would have gotten to that point because there would have been a clear expectation. The tough conversations would have happened. Accountability would have been in place with a process and a system in order to do that. So it's not in just resting on one person's shoulders.

[11:01] These are four important ways in which being nice can be a slippery slope. Number one, being nice is not being strong. They're not the same thing. Pleasing others leads to failure as a leader. Being a people-first leader requires tough conversations. It requires the emotional intelligence to lean in and have the conversation. And finally, don't let accountability rest entirely on your personality and your personal willpower. Build systems and processes for accountability.

[11:34] All of this begs the question, what does it mean to be nice as a leader? Is it all about harmony and lack of conflict? Or is it about honesty and candor? I'm going to go back to that saying from Brene Brown that clear is kind. To be clear with people about what your opinion is, what you think, and to drive it forward.

[11:58] I was in a conversation with someone recently who was in the business of purchasing a business from business owners. And this was someone who is relatively early in their career, and they were approaching seasoned business owners who were at the end of their career ready to sell their business. And this younger person, as they would go into these conversations, felt a little uncomfortable. They felt a little insecure. And as they went into those conversations, what happened is the person across the table, the seasoned business owner, challenged them. Who are you to be the next CEO of my company? What kind of experience do you have? You look really young. What was happening is this person was transmitting that information, that insecurity to the table. They were being nice. They were being friendly. They were being cheerful, all of those things, but they weren't being strong.

[12:53] So the question for you is, can you turn up your strength in the way you interact? When this person in this example was able to do that after several of these interactions, they changed their approach. They worked on themselves to be more confident and more strong and come into those conversations more assertively. And when they did, they stopped getting pushback. And this is super interesting because if you come in weak, you're going to get pushback from the other person. If you come in strong, you don't get the pushback. You can be nice in both situations. You can be nice and you can be strong at the same time. They're not the same thing, but you can be nice and you can be strong at the same time. So how do you show up for yourself? Strength is an inner quality. Strength is your willingness to understand what's important to you, what do you believe in, and to stand up for that and bring it forward and advocate for it. What stands in the way is fear.

[13:50] If I'm strong and I'm forceful, are people not going to like me? Am I going to be wrong? Am I going to make a mistake? Are people going to think I'm abrasive? No. You can still be nice. You can still be friendly. And you can be strong. Don't let fear get in your way. Stand up, figure out what matters for you, and go for it.

[14:13] This is the biggest piece of advice that I offer to my clients because so many people say, well, my boss isn't good, or the culture's not right, or the company's not right. And I always say the first place to change is you. You don't have to wait for other things around you to change. When you change yourself, the things around you evolve. Find that internal strength. Find what matters to you. Don't be just a nice person. Be a strong person. Be an assertive person. Have the tough conversations. Remember, clear is kind, and step up and do what is right. When you do, You will be more happy. You'll be happier as a person. You'll enjoy your job more and you'll be far more effective. You can strike that perfect balance between being liked and respected as a leader.

[15:00] Find something in this and apply it. Do something different. Take a learning out of this and apply it. Because listening to this and finding it interesting or entertaining or insightful in some way, that's all great. But if you don't do something with it, it's just another piece of entertainment. I want you to take a lesson from this. Find a particular situation in your work life or in your personal life where you can apply something that you learned about in this podcast and go out and do something different.