[0:00] Executive coaching is about being successful in your role and how to be successful in your role. But even in the best of circumstances, there are times when it is the right time to look for your next opportunity.

[0:11] Sometimes that's by choice. Sometimes that's by the company's choice. I am super excited to have with me today Andy Mowat, who is the CEO and the founder of Whispered. And we are going to talk about how to be successful in your job search. It's a very important challenge and question for everybody because we all find ourselves in that time and we want to be able to navigate the job search successfully and land in a great role so andy i'm super happy to have you welcome thank you rusty i'm pumped to be here i've loved all our chats awesome so i want to just give you guys a quick background on andy so andy has been a go-to-market executive at multiple unicorn unicorn companies including several in the hr tech space so it's like it's it's this really cool combination and he brings that in an amazing network and he is a master networker so we're going to talk about that too here as a part of this conversation and he bring that to the founding of whispered and um so andy just to start off tell us a little bit about what is whispered and how did you get the idea to create it yeah um you and i have known each other for over 25 years and when we both graduated from Stanford Business School in 2001, there were no jobs.

[1:20] And I went six months without a job, and I had to kind of early in my career teach myself how to do that, how to hustle, how to leverage my network. And I've had a really interesting career. I've worked at Four Unicorns.

[1:32] I've also started three companies, including Whisper. And so every time I do that, you got to pop your head up and you're like, crap, I have to re-explore. I'm not coming from a traditional background. I've gotten really good at landing these really high-end roles by leveraging my network recruiters and talent partners and being just incredibly articulate in where I'm focused. Yeah.

[1:56] And I will tell you, as Andy mentioned, we have known each other for so long. And I have watched Andy oftentimes with awe at all the people he knows, the connections he makes, his ability to stay connected to a lot of people, which is just such a key factor in your success, I think, um, yeah, no, it, it is. And I think it's like at some point, you know, most of us, it's really easy for the first 10 or 15 years. Cause you just, there's so many jobs that happen, but as you get more and more senior, those jobs aren't posted. They're whispered. Yeah. I love it. So, so as you get more and more senior and it's harder to find

[2:31] those jobs, they're not posted. What make, what differentiates the people who are successful in that job search process versus those who struggled?

[2:39] I think first is clarity and the, a lot of people don't have it. They're kind of like, they want to, they want to kind of like keep all their options open. So I think I've written some fun articles on like how to find clarity and also like how to define your own niche, right? If somebody comes in and is like, ah, I kind of want an interesting role, anything, I, people are going to struggle to help them. If they come in and are like, this is what I do. These are, these are the types of companies I'm looking at and this is why, and they've done that homework. They're just so much easier to help and also remember right and so it's like i meet tons of people every day and they're like hey if if you think of it if you hear of any interesting roles would you send them to me and i've written a fun article on that too like no i no one's ever going to remember you and no one's ever going to do that um not that they don't want to but you haven't made it easy and so i think the candidates that do are really crystal clear in what they're doing have a clear niche that is memorable um and then they execute really well once they get into opportunities. I mean, you know me and the work that I do and I help people get that clarity, but I think the other part of it is the overcoming what stands in the way of getting the clarity. Because oftentimes the reason people are hesitant to say, this is what I want is because they're afraid, well, if I say, I really want this kind of role, then they're ruling out all these other kinds of roles. And they say, well, I don't want to lose out on a cool opportunity.

[3:59] And yet I'm also hearing that that's a challenge right that that that can get in their way yeah there's this great quote um that i love which basically says and i'll just read it out loud i just pulled it up that's every ounce of your intuition will tell you to position yourself broadly to cast a wide net but the wide net does not catch good possibilities because humans can be expansive, not reductive so they can take a if you're incredibly specific people can be like oh cool well, Rusty only wants fishing jobs in Idaho, but you're always going to remember anytime somebody messes fishing. But then you'll be like, well, maybe Rusty wants to move to Seattle and not do fishing, but do hunting instead, right? So people can, people mentally, just the way the human brain works is, first, you got to be remembered. And second is you got to be as niched down and focused as you can. It's irony of irony, but I think everyone can probably realize that.

[4:51] Like when people are like, hey, can you tell me when you find something interesting? Like, I'm not trying to remember what is interesting for you. You've got to make sure I remember that. I love that. That is so powerful and what a great quote too. And I think this idea of being remembered and being remembered is about being specific. It's not about this general, hey, I can do everything for you. It's about being very clear about what you can do.

[5:13] Um, so if you're, I mean, so obviously being clear is important, niching down. Um, but if you were to give people one kind of one suggestion as they're entering into a job search or they're in the middle of a job search and you, it's just like your biggest tip that would say, what do you want to, like, how would you, what would you tell them in order to be more successful in that job search?

[5:35] I'll probably have like tons of tactics. We've written just articles and articles on it. But if I had to kind of take that, once you have that clarity in yourself, then you got to be clear on what you're hunting for, right? Like I found the ability to articulate what companies are you targeting, even if there's no specific roles there is amazing. Like I networked into two post IPO or one post IPO and one top unicorn cold start after not having that background beforehand, just by saying like, I want to talk to interesting people in here and I want to be really articulate about the value I drive. And so I always coach people like having a clear target company list. There's so many motions you can run off of that, right? Like you can pick up the phone and call the talent partners and be like, hey, like I'm looking at these three companies and I see you're invested in them. You can go on LinkedIn and find all the different folks that you know that have those relationships and you can leverage them, right? So I think a lot of people just sit back and wait. And it's funny because we do have the deepest database of unposted go-to-market rules out there anywhere. Um, and a lot of people are like, cool, just give me the roles. I'll be good. And I'm like, no, that's just a small part of searching effectively for a job. You have to be clear. You have to be articulate. And then you have to show up well in the interview process, which we can dive into as well. Yeah. Um, yeah.

[6:55] Well, let's do that. Let's talk about the interview process. I mean, what would you say is, once again, where do you see most people messing up in the interview process? Or what do you think they do that's not putting their best foot forward? And what could they do instead? That there's a question you get asked in every interview which is do you have any questions for us and so first off most people flub it and they have um what i heard a great quote from doug leone on was those are not serious questions right like what is your vision for the next two years of your company what is like what's the culture of your company those are throwaway questions that are not deeply thought through so first off like come from here with questions and i've got a fun kind of deep thing on like what's the types of questions you can ask and second is like i show up to interviews and i don't i'm not letting them interview me i'm interviewing them i want to know if this is going to be a fit do i have the right people who do i work with how are decisions made, what are the resources and so when somebody does that to me it puts me on the opposite foot when i'm the hiring manager and so i'm all of a sudden like holy crap this person is in demand they know what it's going to take to be successful. And they're asking me questions and they can take control over something, right? So that demonstrates the senior mentality and also an understanding of what it takes to be successful and a lack of desperation.

[8:18] You know, you know that I talk about mindset and skill set, and there's certainly a skill set to some of the things that you're talking about. But a big part of this is the mindset, which is I'm not there on the defensive, just trying to answer the questions and be good enough to be hired. I am there because this is a we're both interviewing each other. They're seeing, am I going to add value and be a good fit to the company? But equally, I'm evaluating them to say, is this the kind of company I want to work for? Or do they have a strategy? Do they have the kind of team that I want to walk into? Who am I going to be partnering with? What is my likelihood of success? And can I be happy and successful here? And I think that mindset shift is key. And that's exactly what you're talking about. And if you do that, you're going to come in with deeper and better questions. Plus, of course, the skill set to do the research and be prepared. I love it. I also, so I think the research, the questions, taking control. I actually, I try to take control over the, not only just having the questions, But I try to take control over the interview early when I'm the interviewee. Right. And I'll say like, you know, early on and think I'll be like, oh, I've got some great questions. But like, let's start with yours. And inevitably people like they're like, oh, no, no, no, no. Why don't we start with yours? Right. And so like I can generally own that interview and put them on like a, wow, this guy really knows what he's after and understanding. You know, all that is the foundation is career is clarity of what you are good at.

[9:44] Who you are, what value do you drive? And it's like the amount of, we turn away everybody from, that applies to whisper premium that thinks that just finding the rules is somehow a shortcut or a silver bullet. Like if you don't have that foundation, you're going to struggle. Um, yes, there's clarity is a piece of that, but confidence is the other piece. Uh, and it's a willingness to walk into the interview and, you know, right off the bat to say, as, as you're getting through the pleasantries and the introductions and so on, it's like, oh, I've been really looking forward to this interview. I've got a bunch of questions I want to ask you, but of course you go ahead and start as the person being interviewed. Like how many people, okay. I've done a lot of interviews. I've done interviewed a ton of people. I've hired a bunch of people during my corporate years. And I don't think anybody started off that way.

[10:32] I basically, if I get to the interview, I don't lose. Right. And so those are types of things where, I mean, I think Whisper is more tuned

[10:38] to like helping you with the top of funnel, but like we, we coach on some of that stuff as well too. And so I don't think I've ever had like a second round interview where I haven't won it. Um, and, uh, and so for me, I think that's there. I think your point on confidence is a good one. We talk a lot about within the Whisper community, right. of like oh man i know i'm not excited about this job but it's the only one i have left and so i think there's a lot of like strategies on how to keep up your confidence and also like community support like it is lonely um it is like searching for your next exec role is lonely there's a lot of waiting and so i think we've also really been focused on building out the community to help on that yeah awesome um you talked about you mentioned top of funnel and one of the things that whispered is is particularly helpful at is top of funnel but you also talked earlier about networking and uh how your network how you networked cold into several companies and um, i mean this is a very broad question and it's probably not not very conducive to a simple answer but i'm going to just ask it anyway because i bet you've got a good uh good way to articulate this, which is how do you network? If you're someone who doesn't feel like you're good at it, or you feel like you've got some judgment against it or something like, how do you go out and, effectively build relationship with people and use that to your advantage in a job search?

[11:59] So before I answer that, I'd say, I think I've touched a lot of people that as you get more senior career, like crap, I need to always be doing this versus just turn it on and off. I'd say for me, it's listening. And I'm probably not the best listener, but I've gotten really, I have this intellectual curiosity. My grandmother taught me one time. It's like, if you're sitting at a party and they ask all the questions about you and you don't ask anything about them, like you're not a good guest, right? And I think I took that to heart. And so I'm really intellectually curious about people. And then I ask a lot of questions. I try to understand areas of commonality. And I'm looking for...

[12:36] I'm always kind of observant of like oh interesting russie just mentioned this i know that i can help figure out how to connect russ like i love i love making intros so i'm listening i'm curious and i'm offering intros and i do with no expectation of return um again like if people in my network are not also giving and helping they i turn off on but everybody else i'm I'm very much kidding. So I do draw that line of like, it's not everyone all the time gets every intro, but it's like people that are helpful, people that care. I have this fun game. I play at a cocktail party, right? Like if I ask 10 questions about somebody and they don't ask one about me, I suddenly just move on to the next person, right? Like maybe that's my grandmother talking in there somewhere. I love it.

[13:24] So again, I think you're talking about some great approaches to networking. And one of the things that I've want to just add into that is just a shift in perception, because a lot of if you're the kind of person who turns networking on and off, obviously, as you get more senior, that's not going to be very effective for you. But there's also that makes it much more likely to see it as transactional rather than as a part of what you do. And if you see it as transactional, like I'm here to try to get something from the other person or it's just this like give and take exchange as opposed to building a relationship. It's going to be much you're going to be less successful doing it and you're going to like it a lot less i like that um yeah you touched on something else too which is like you cannot just show up and ask people when you need their help so another thing i guess i would do is anytime i think of somebody probably like five to ten times a day i'll just chop my note right like i was walking and i thought of this one guy because i walked by the building where his office used to be. And I was like, Hey man, just thinking about dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. Right. And so like, I've checked in with that guy, like he may not reply. Um, but it's, but it's so powerful. And so I do that, you know, five to 10 times a day. I'm always looking for excuses just to check in with people and share something with them.

[14:37] So powerful. That's so powerful. Just to maintain the connection without any expectation of something, but just to say, hello, who doesn't like to have someone say, Hey, just saying, hi, I haven't heard. We haven't been in touch for a while. Like what a nice thing.

[14:50] Um, this is fantastic. Um, so Andy, if someone was interested in whispered and they wanted to learn more about it, they want to learn more about you. What's, what's the best way to do that? Our website, I'm sure everyone will send me a whispered.com. Like I whispered something to you. Um, our tagline is your next role won't be posted. It'll be whispered. Uh, we have built deep free guides and resources. There's also an AI version of Andy that you can chat with and literally ask it anything about your search. I've been blown away by that. And so I try, everyone always was like, cool, great. You got lots of jobs. I want to talk to you. But I'm like, no, no, no, go get your clarity first. If somebody puts in and applies for Whisper Premium, even if they end up not buying it, we will connect. We will chat about your career. I will give you feedback. Yeah, I love it, man. We talked about some important things.

[15:41] Focus and how important clarity is. You have to know what your background is, what skills you bring, what you can do to the company, and what companies you're looking for. You've got to be clear when you talk to people or they won't remember you. We talked about interviews, asking good questions, and really stepping into a leadership position in the interview, even when you're the person being interviewed. Don't just be there to try to sell the other person, but step up and take a leadership role in the interview. We talked about networking, how it's something that you're doing constantly. It's not just something you turn on and off. Being a good listener, being curious, asking questions, and remembering people and staying in touch with people.

[16:19] Andy, so great to talk to you. I love the, I love the nuggets and I love the business that you're, that you're running right now. It's this looking for a job can be one of the more stressful times in someone's life, especially you and I have both experienced that time where it took months to find a new job and it's super difficult. So having a community where you can do it, where you've got it, having some structure associated with it, having new content that you can learn from all of this stuff matters to make you more successful and that's what whisper is delivering so um i love it and to top it off uh executives whisper about companies they've met so we help people figure out like which of the companies to go to and which are the toxic ones and then uh you know unposted roles don't hurt either yeah awesome all right andy thank you so much for this great conversation thank you man great chatting.