[0:08] Executive presence can make or break your career. But here's the thing. You don't control it directly. You have to earn it. I'm Rusty Gaillard, and this is Do Something Different. I'm doing something different this week, and I'm happy to bring on my first guest of the podcast. It will not be my last. It is the wonderful Cindy Skalicki. Cindy and I have done work together in the past, including a project we did at Google a little over a year ago. And I'm super happy to have her on to talk about this very important topic, executive presence. So welcome, Cindy. Happy to have you here. Hi, Rusty. It's always good to see you. Thanks for inviting me on. I love this topic, as you know. Absolutely. I know you do. I know you do. And just I want to start by I didn't give you a very full introduction. Cindy has a book coming out. She's got a podcast that's coming. She is the founder and the chief coach of On Point Communications, helping leaders to be more effective communicators, which obviously is an important part of executive presence. So a little bit of background. Yes. Yes. Perfect. I love it.

[1:12] Well, let's jump into executive presence because I think, you know, when you and I have worked on this together, we've deconstructed a little bit, but I'd love to just start with the question and what is executive presence? And from the people that you work with and from the environments that you find yourself in and they find themselves in. What does it mean? What is executive presence and how do you start to break it apart? Yes. Great question. We get this a lot. And I think in a lot of ways, our work together that you and I have done over the years has forced us to find an answer to this because it's not very clear.

[1:47] Some of the audience members might know a little about me, but my background is rhetoric and there is a definition for rhetoric, right? And persuasion and persuasive communication. You can look up in the dictionary, there really isn't one for executive presence. So you and I, I mean, Google's a great example, right? We walked in to a couple of teams of executives, very.

[2:08] Smart, heady, logical, analytical folks who called on us to assist them with growing in the heart area, the heart part of presence. And that's kind of where we have this combination of heart and head when you come to the term itself. Executive, meaning the leader of an organization who is decision-making, executive, executing. And then the presence piece, which is where that softness comes in, not soft, like step on you soft, but that person, personal nature, that authenticity comes in. So it's head and it's heart and it's what people crave. Yeah. And I think that the Google example is such a good one. And I see this with so many of my clients that I work with in high tech, which is high tech is kind of a brainy place.

[3:00] And I know you work with a lot of technology people and they're all super smart. And the challenge for a lot of these people is we over index on the on the executive part which is the left brain analytical part and under index on the right brain the presence part so i think it's just that that dichotomy dichotomy because so many of these people have been successful because of their intellect but when you're talking about executive presence you're asking them to balance things differently yeah you know it's funny i never thought of it this way really rusty but i would say like the majority of people that i help and.

[3:36] They're all heady and they need help with the heart. The only place I have seen the reverse is in the nonprofit sector where there's so much heart with around, you know, impact and helping like pets or the homeless or grieving parents. You know, the heart part where you have to kind of help them level up the executive part. So most leaders I work with, super brainy scientists, PhDs, they need help and

[4:03] they need to understand the value of bringing that heart part in. And they, at least most of them know that they need to, they just don't know how. Well, so I think this is great because one of the principles of do something different and the work that I do is it's a combination of mindset and skill set. Yep. And in some ways you could say, well, mindset is more the right brain heart kind of thing and skill set is more the left brain analytical kind of thing. And I'd love to take a minute and kind of dig into some of that with you. So let's start with the skill set part because the people who are listening to this tend to be more oriented towards the rational, logical, intellectual side, because they're all super smart people. What are the skill sets? What are some of those things? And this, to me, is like the perfect opening to the how-to model, because I love the way you created that model to give people a really specific way of how do you tell a story and how do you connect with people in order to be effective at influencing them?

[5:00] Absolutely. So yes, the how-to model is something I built for executives so they could follow a specific pathway to getting their audiences closer to that green light of go more swiftly and to use both head and heart. So for those who don't know, how to is an acronym. And when you are using the model correctly, the audience is looking at you and you're answering these questions effectively. The audience is saying like, hook me, get my attention, speaker. I want you to hook me, get my attention, orient me to the problem that's in the industry that we're trying to solve, win me over by whatever you're proposing. So now we're starting to get into head, okay, that hooking and orienting happens through story. So we're getting at heart. with start with heart. It's handy that it rhymes, right? Start with heart.

[5:53] Hook me, orient me, win me. And then the audience is like, oh, okay. I like your idea. T, tell me more. This is where we're convincing. We're getting to the data part, people like. And the last letter of the model is, oh, for offer me, like,

[6:07] tell me what you want me to do. I need buy-in. I need more money. I need more people on my team to make this, um, this effort a success. Yes. That's the base of the model. Thank you for that very quick one through. And obviously this is all going to be explained more in your book, which is coming out later this year. Yeah. Um, but I think it's so important to notice that it starts with heart. Yeah. The hook me and the oriented orient me are more story oriented. It said that tell me more, which is the fourth of the five letters is when you get to the data.

[6:41] Yeah. Smart people are like, let's put the data up. Let's put the data up. We got to like start with the data, but you don't want to start with the data or you're hurting yourself. Well, and I want to like tell you an update, Rusty, even since you and I did our work together with Google, what I've learned since even then, and the more that I use this model and teach it is people freak out when I'm like, you got to start with a story. They're like, nobody wants to hear my story. And what I have learned and experienced with our clients is like, And guys, the story can be under 120 seconds, like one to two minutes of a beautifully strategically selected story is all you need. So they think when I say story and start with story, people think I'm like asking them to sit down and read a novel to the audience. And that is completely the opposite, because, you know, I know that the audience wants that data and they do, but they also have to connect to you. And that's where we get into executive presence.

[7:41] Yeah, I think we forget that our audience is people. And I'm reminded of one of the people we worked with at Google, and we did some in-depth one-on-one work with this person. This guy was standing up in front of, I don't remember the number, but it was on the order of 2,000 people. It was a large audience, both in-person and virtual. It was a hybrid kind of situation. Yeah. And the first iteration of what he was doing, it was so much facts and figures and numbers and charts and data. And it was like, I mean, my eyes kind of glazed over.

[8:12] And, you know, sure, I don't work in the company and, you know, all of that. But 2,000 people, most of them are not familiar with his work. And so it's introducing his work to 2,000 people. And the first iteration was, it just didn't work. It didn't grab anybody. It didn't hook anybody. It didn't get their attention. It didn't orient them to, why are we even talking about this? And that's why story is so important. And that's what an effective executive does well, not from the executive left brain rational decision making part of their skill set, but from their ability to work well with people and to get people's attention.

[8:50] To orient them so they understand why are we talking about this? And then they're invested and then you can get into the rest of the story. And Rusty, you know, you're talking about mindset and skill set. And I was thinking about that particular individual. And one of the questions I would ask anybody here is, so let's say you're presenting at a big conference like that. That's an all day thing. A skill set thing that you could implement is to know and think about, like, where in the day are you presenting? How spent is your audience before you get on that stage, right? That order and flow of the whole conference, of the whole meeting or whatnot, that impacts maybe even what story you want to tell, right? Right. You might even pull something from. So that's part of that savviness that an executive has and kind of leads us to that skill set mindset piece of being smart enough to think about that. But Cindy, I think this is all great, but it assumes that people, if they wanted to tell a story, they could. And so many of the people I talk to are like, I don't have a story to tell.

[10:01] You're asking me to tell a story. I don't even know what story to tell, let alone I'm not very confident in my ability to tell a story. How do you help people with those questions? Well, once again, it's been through a lot of trial of having people ask me very simple questions like that where I have had to say to myself, like.

[10:22] Well, I know the answer to this, but how do I explain this to them? So what I have come up with and landed on is that when you need to select a story for a presentation.

[10:31] The first place to start is with the feeling that you want your audience to have by the time you're finished with the story and the feeling they have at the beginning about your idea. So that we want them to travel in their mind and heart toward the feeling that, you know, you have at the beginning and the end of the story. So then I say like, okay, everybody has some universal stories, stories of being lost, stories of being embarrassed or ashamed or joyful or victorious.

[11:06] Like these are universal feelings and we all have stories that can put us in those places. So travel, for example, is an excellent place to start with figuring out where you might pull a story from because we can always pull an analogy out of the story. Like Venice, I was lost in Venice. Who hasn't been, right? Who hasn't been lost? Who hasn't been scared? So these feelings guide us toward stories. And I mean, just last week I was helping a client with a story. She was addressing a hundred people in her team for the first time ever. She's the division head. And she told a story about her softball game from her junior year in high school. Like it doesn't have to be recent or work-oriented for you to hit on the feeling. And she nailed it. And everybody loved it. And soon after, somebody came up to her, showed her a photo of her son playing baseball. Like, I mean, it just really creates connectivity.

[12:03] That's so interesting. I think most people would assume your story has to be work-oriented. No. In fact, often it shouldn't be. It can be work-oriented. You know, because you, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, but like you want that person, like the audience learned so much about Nicole in that moment of what kind of person she was, the competitive drive she had, the sports that she played. And it creates this whole new orbit of who she is and what kind of leader she is. it's just a barrier breaker when you talk about your personal stories.

[12:37] Yeah. Leadership is personal. I mean, fundamentally, leadership is one person relating to another person and being able to be successfully communicate with them and influence them and achieve together a desired outcome. Well, but so many people want to be so analytical about it and just focus on the work. And I think what you're saying is an important part of executive presence is being human to some extent.

[13:08] But that inappropriate moments and in a thought out way with a specific purpose or point, you do share a story about yourself that is a way of connecting to people, making a broader point that relates to business, but can be told from a personal story context. And that is such a different way of thinking about executive presence. Most people think, well, I need to, I don't know, dress well or sit up in a particular seat at the table. You know, there's a lot of these kinds of behavioral things that we could talk about. But this one is kind of like the secret sauce that a lot of people. Yeah. Yeah. Well, a quick tip for people listening.

[13:48] When you're telling us. So this is this is really nuanced. OK, but you can tell a personal story to your audience without it being about you. Wait, what? How do you do that? Right. So but there's a trick that you have to put in place, which is like let's imagine we're doing a two minute story at the beginning of something. I'm thinking of Nicole. Two minute story to kick off a whole two day event. two-minute story 30 seconds in after she's hooked her audience she throws a rhetorical question out at them and it's like have you ever felt like blah blah blah right so you've now pulled them in and Rusty you did this you did this at Google you told a personal story about jumping from a cliff knowing not whether you were going to break your neck or land in water that was deep enough And it was a vulnerable story about a potential losing moment, a fearful moment. And then you threw out that rhetorical question. And when you do that, you've brought the audience into their own minds, their own lives. It's so powerful. It's just so powerful. Yeah, I love this. I love this. Because I think this is, when you talk about executive presence, this storytelling, this personal part of it is so important. And it's what so many people miss.

[15:10] I mean, just a very simple example is one of my clients started sending a weekly video message to his team. His team was all over the world. And so it was, it was, he never basically could

[15:22] get everyone on the phone at once or everyone on a call at once. And so we started using this person this video message as a way of connecting and it's so different from an email because you see a person live and you get the sense of them and it's just it's a very different experience i think it's those kinds of things that when you can start getting curious about how can i be how can i really connect with people in a personal way that can really make a difference yeah yes love it um so cindy i'd love to also hear from your thoughts or from your perspective, how does this balance with this other part of executive presence, which can be very behavioral? And this gets to posture and tone of voice and volume and so many things that are relevant if you're standing on a stage presenting, but they're relevant if you're in a conference room. And they can even be relevant in a video situation. Sure. Sure. So maybe some tips or like some thoughts about that. Is that what we might want to tap into?

[16:28] Yeah. And I'm just, I'm curious, like what, I mean, we could, we could talk about some of the specifics there, but I'm curious, how do you weigh those things relative to this kind of heart part of being visible and telling a story and being human? Yeah, well, I think a lot of leaders I've worked with are unfamiliar with the gears under the hood. You know what I mean? And that's where the volume and the posture and the wardrobe and eye contact, handshake, pace is a huge one when it comes to executive presence. And so we want to like open the hood and take a look down at the gears that make the engine of you run and try to make sure they're all, you know, at, you know, the, the fill line is full and that we're tapping them when we want to. So one that, that I like to share that most people don't think about really is that pacing one, the way that we talk. I work with a lot of leaders who lose the opportunity to earn executive presence by talking too fast. And so, you know, when you're in a big meeting and your opinion is something you really want to lay on the table, that tone of voice and pace of voice.

[17:52] Slowing it down increases your executive presence because you're not worried, you don't appear fearful, that you don't want anyone to interrupt you, for example. Slower pace equals higher confidence.

[18:08] And I would add to that, not just slower pace, but your willingness to pause. Yeah, yes. That's like a danger zone. Like, what if I pause and someone has a question that I can't answer? Well, so what, right? big deal you have to think about it you are human right yeah everybody in the room has been in those moments yeah i like the way you describe that because those are the gears under the hood those are the things they have to be in place they have to be working or the car doesn't move right but the story is i don't know maybe in that example it's like the journey you're taking or the route you're taking you know it's like there's the engine that's that's pumping away which is your pacing and your volume and your posture and your wardrobe choice and all of that. But then there's a, how are you applying that? And are you applying it in a productive direction?

[18:57] Right. Right. And you want to create a journey for your audience, even in small moments of just like, can you run a good meeting? That's part of executive presence is knowing how to make sure you're maximizing your team's time, your partner, your business partners, your vendors. Can you run an efficient meeting? I can't tell you how many times that's a problem for teams and clients who don't even have the skills or haven't been taught the function of an agenda at the beginning of a call, just to say, here's what I've got planned. How does that sound to you? Some of these really simple tips can totally change the game for leaders.

[19:38] And that's exciting to see quick wins yeah and especially because it it conveys that you've thought about this and you're in charge and you're making a decision that is the first decision this is why we're here together yeah i asked one of my clients once he's like i've seen such a great um growth from the last couple of months of working together and i said oh good like why like what have you done differently and he said you know the meetings are going a lot better and i said why what have you done differently? And he said.

[20:09] I just take three or four minutes before the phone call starts and I grab a sticky note just like you told me to and I write down the things, like I bring the things to the front that I know I need to have, you know, in my hand before starting the meeting because otherwise we end up with this one day that's like one long meeting. So i think you you're great at this rusty but like you know it's important with or without a coach that you figure out what is creating the growth strides for you like why is this working what is the thing i'm doing differently and then can i repeat it so it becomes the new neurological you know bridge that my brain's making for me and getting rid of the old habit yeah it's the whole concepts behind this podcast to do something different. Oh, yeah. I love that. Do something different. And that so I'm going to ask you in a moment here, like if you had to offer one tip to people to give them to boost their executive presence, what would it be? But I want to just pull out of what you just said, something that I would offer, which is a willingness to carve out those three or four minutes to step out of the busyness of your day.

[21:20] Stop trying to catch up on email and slack and rush to your next meeting and all those other kinds of things that make your life busy. Take a few moments, calm yourself, hear your mind of all the noise and just think about what's important for this upcoming meeting, for this upcoming day. What are the things? I could only do two things today. What are they going to be? What's important in order to help my organization, my team, my company move to the next level? And of course, you're always a part of that equation. But that simple exercise of not just doing the thing that's right in front of you, because again, like the people we tend to work with are smart, ambitious, high performing, highly capable and productive. Well, they can get a lot of stuff done.

[22:06] But the question is, are you doing the right stuff? And they're getting in their own way, right? Just like I get in my own way too. Like we're all, that's why, you know, I have, uh, beware of the coach who doesn't have a coach, right? I have coaches too. And, you know, it's all good. But no, that's a great point. I love that. I like the idea of just taking... Two minutes, four minutes, stepping aside, thinking, planning, what's important. If you were to offer something to all the listeners about one way to boost their executive presence based on what you see has a lot of impact with your clients, what would you say? Well, right now I'm working on putting what you just said into action for my next phone call. I'm like using your advice. Please.

[22:47] I'm going to use the word volume as my tip, and I'm going to do that strategically

[22:54] because I have two ways of talking about volume. So volume is your instant credibility builder, my friends. And that means that coming in either to a meeting, but especially a stage situation, you want to boost your volume because it builds and it says credibility and confidence. So there's breathing and then there's diaphragmatic breathing. And so when you are trying to get good volume, you need to use your diaphragm, which is a muscle in your abdomen. Instead of talking from up here in your upper chest where your nervousness talk comes from, we need to practice deep breathing and speak from our diaphragms and push that air out so it's nice and big and it's loud. And so you'll feel confident doing that. If you stand instead of sit in a virtual setting, you'll feel and look and sound more confident in that area. But the second way I want to speak about volume has to do with speaking up when it comes to your opinion that people in the room might want to hear.

[24:04] So i was coaching a guy at a huge bank national bank here in the u.s it's a global bank but he's in the u.s and he had like the entourage come to the office like the ceo was coming with the c-suite and he was invited to a roundtable discussion with like eight people and the ceo and we were talking about everybody gets to ask a question so we talked about primacy and that means you know where in the line of the eight people who get to ask a question should your question be? It's like, well, you don't want to be first because you might be forgotten and you might be looked at as overzealous. So we were like second or third. We want to be second or third in the line of people asking the question because it's early. People want to see the, you know, you're going to have higher energy. You won't be repeating things and you won't appear afraid to ask. And so we sketched out this question. But that's the other way I would say volume is important. It's like, get your opinion out there. Be loud in the sense that you're not afraid to share your perspective.

[25:09] You know, you executives listening, you are not hired to be just a paper pusher. People want to know your ideas, hear your opinion and your recommendation on the situation. Even if you're speaking to levels way up above you, they want to know what you think. Tell them. So the volume piece goes two ways. And that's what I would say is the first and easiest step to executive presence. I love it. I love it.

[25:35] Cindy, this is great. I know you and I could talk for hours about executive presence, give tip after tip after tool after tool. But thank you for joining here on Do Something Different.

[25:48] Tell us a little bit about your book when it's coming out, your podcast, when it's coming out, how to get in touch with you and follow you. Oh, for sure. Well, my book is called Red Light, Green Light. It's all about how to help smart leaders talk with stakeholders and get them from no to go using the actual stoplight system of red, yellow to green. So that's coming out in second quarter. And we are starting our podcast that's launching in just the next week or two. It's also called Red Light, Green Light. And you can find me at LinkedIn, the easiest tips. And I'm here frequently. just direct message me, do something different and send me a connection request.

[26:29] And I'd love, you know, any friend of Rusty's is a friend of mine and we have a lot of mutual connections as well. So always happy to just meet new people and find out where they're succeeding and where, you know, there might be some stuck places, but I'm here. And onpoint-communications.com is our website where you can learn more about what we do and who we've helped. Fantastic. Thank you so much, Cindy. And for everyone listening, reflect on this conversation and pick something that you will apply. It's not knowledge, it's the action that makes a difference. And so reflect on what stood out to you. Pick something and do it. Do something different this week, because that's what's going to move you forward. Yeah, love it. All right. Thank you so much, Cindy. Talk to you soon. Bye.